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>Celebs Support Prop 8

>An All-star cast does a musical against Proposition 8 in California. Kind of funny, but also disturbing, and offensive. But what else is Hollywood known for?

http://player.ordienetworks.com/flash/fodplayer.swf

See more Jack Black videos at Funny or Die

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Discussion

8 thoughts on “>Celebs Support Prop 8

  1. >Kazimir,Thanks for your response and I’m sorry but I just now noticed it. I would say first that I do have a strong notion of inspiration. While I think it includes much more than the silly notion of robotic dictation, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write what he wrote and I believe the Scriptures to be true in all that they teach. If there is the possibility of the NT writers going off on some tangent of their own, which is subtly implied by Wink, then what was the use. But this is beside the point.I am completely baffled by your question about biblical interpretation. Are you saying my interpretive model finds a parallel with the Pharisees or are you simply wanting to place me in their category? This is customary when people don’t agree on a totally inclusive idea about these issues but I assure you my mode of interpretation does not follow theirs. Moreover, I can assure you that I do not hold a judgmental attitude toward those who are homosexuals in the church. I happen to have friends who are gay and in the church and I do not judge them on these matters.In addition, I can say they are wonderful people and I think very highly of them. So to suggest that is somewhat insulting.However, I can understand the strong emotions that come with discussions on this issue. So please let me clarify.(1) I do not judge homosexuals nor do I look down on them nor do I think they should be thrown out of the church, nor do I think they are less Christian than I am. (2) I believe the Scriptures are inspired and true in all that they teach.(3) I believe that the Scriptures explicitly call homosexuality a sin.(4) I also believe the Scriptures call pride, arrogance, lust, drunkenness, and fornication sinful.(5) I do not think one is more sinful than the other.My point then being, while I do not judge people who lust, are prideful, are arrogant, are drunkards or homosexuals, I also do not try to twist the Scriptures to try and make their behavior acceptable. They are sinners, like you and me. We all sin. We are all sinners. It is when we try to masquerade our sin or deny our sin that we suffer. 1 John clearly spells this out. We make God out to be a liar if we say we have not sinned or that we are not sinners. Thus, I am willing to discuss and embrace more inclusive ideas, but I am not willing to call homosexuality an acceptable practice when the Scriptures tell me the opposite. So in this I think my interpretive model lines up with the NT authors and Christ. Jesus came to save the sick, not the well. If you say you are well, then you yourself become the Pharisee, which is what they did. THus when you try to say that homosexuality is not sinful, you deny your very need for Christ. Admit your sin and call it what it is. Jesus loves sinners!

    Posted by Mark Mathews | January 6, 2009, 11:14 pm
  2. >Mark Mathews,You say that to “play the socio-historical milieu card simply won’t work” insofar as Paul “was inspired by the Holy Spirit.” I don’t see how this is supposed to follow. Let us assume that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why is it obvious that such inspiration would ensure that that Paul’s own cultural biases wouldn’t infect his writings? It seems that you have a rather strong notion of “inspiration”.I’d be interested to see how the styles of biblical interpretation of New Testament authors and Jesus compare to those of the religious leaders of Jesus’ day (who, I think, largely rejected Jesus). Is it clear that your preferred style of scriptural interpretation would put you in the former group? If your preferred style would rather put you with the Pharisees, would this be troubling? These are not meant to be rhetorical questions. I don’t know the answers, I suppose that you have more expertise in this area, and I’d truly be interested in your thoughts.

    Posted by kazimir | December 26, 2008, 1:23 am
  3. >”The very tendency to look to the Bible as a sort of exhaustive rule book for life and policy seems perverse and dangerous.”Kazimir,Oddly enough for almost 2000 years now the church traditions have had a tendency to see the Scriptures as a ‘rule book’ if you will, though that term may be over the top, for the Christian life, albeit in somewhat different ways and to differing degrees. I would agree that ‘exhaustive’ would be saying too much, though I’m not sure either tradition would make that claim. However, on matters that the Scriptures do address one cannot simply avoid the conversation or try to color them in a different light.I will be the first to agree that the evangelical church in America has done a deplorable job at handling issues of homosexuality. The church has too many of her own problems than to be singling out one particular sin and people group and fixating on it/them. So I understand that concern. There are ways to acknowledge sins that the Bible ‘explicitly’ states and still recognize the struggles of individual Christians to live life in this age.I have a very dear friend who was in a homosexual relationship, or a number of them over the years (I’m not sure if practicing homosexual is a politically correct term) who became involved in a church in the northwest. They loved him, nurtured him, never badgered or condemned him. Over the course of a couple of years he came to the conclusion that his lifestyle was not acceptable to God. He came to this conclusion from the Scriptures, on his own, without the senseless badgering of others. Today he is married with three children and very happy. I’m not sure if he would say he still has a particular sexual orientation or not, but he is in a monogamous, heterosexual, married relationship and understands this to be what the Scriptures teach. Now I’m not saying that everyone will come to the same conclusions. This is just an example of ‘one’ person. So please don’t understand this as a blanket statement. What I am trying to emphasize is how his church handled the situation.Now many would say, ‘How can we let a practicing homosexual worship in the church?’ To which I would reply, how can you let a practicing adulterer, or porn addict, or prideful person, or one who hates his brother, or one who is addicted to pain killers, or is involved in ungodly business practices? These people are in every church and more times than not, the rule and not the exception. We are all sinners dealing with loads of issues. Anyway, though I am trying to discuss how the church handles this situation, I am still not willing to concede that the Scriptures in any way condone homosexual relationships. I am no expert at biblical interpretation either since there are many difficult passages to deal with in the Scriptures. However, as a student of the Scriptures and one who has spent a considerable amount of time studying them I can say this is not one of those difficult issues. It is very clear that Scripture denigrates homosexual relationships. Now, how we deal with it is another issue entirely.To play the socio-historical milieu card simply won’t work. While Paul may not have been familiar with psychological categories and may not have been aware of sexual orientation, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit who I am satisfied understands perfectly the human condition. Moreover, just because we have developed categories to explain our behavior does not mean that trumps Scriptural categories. To say that the categories Paul is dealing with are different from the OT won’t work either. Traditions in the Second Temple period denounce homosexuality altogether and in much clearer form than what Paul does. 1 Enoch and the Sibylline Oracles just to name a couple (Jewish texts of late antiquity and early Christian documents) are very clear that homosexual relationships are antithetical to godly behavior. And these texts go so far as to vilify those who participate in such. All of these traditions either precede Paul or are contemporary. So to say that Paul is dealing with a particular kind of relationship simply won’t fly.I for one will not deny that there are men who have a sexual orientation toward other men. I am sure this is very real. And it may be that this is somehow something that they feel has been there since birth. I just won’t sit back and judge and say that these are not real feelings. However, this does not change Scripture. I have a strong orientation toward drinking large amounts of alcohol and taking illegal drugs to make me feel good. And since my father was an alcoholic all of his life I can say that I am hard-wired to do so. Thus, I have this orientation from birth. However, that doesn’t make it okay to do. For 33 years of my life I did these things and thought people who told me they were wrong were narrow minded (though not a lot of people were telling me it was wrong). But after coming to faith in Jesus Christ and reading the Scriptures, I learned that this lifestyle was not pleasing to God. I wouldn’t say that if I continued in them for a while that it would mean I hadn’t truly come to faith. But when I realized that this was not pleasing to God I also realized my inability to quit doing these things on my own. Therefore, I prayed and asked God to help me live a life pleasing to him and to give me the power to do so.I can say today, that for 11 years now I have not had one drink of alcohol, have taken no drugs, illegal, prescription or otherwise to make me feel good. I still have an orientation toward these things so I don’t put myself in situations where I will be tempted by them. But even when I am in those situations God gives me the strength to do what is right.I would also add that this is not everyone’s experience. But it is mine and I share it with you.I hope I have not come across as judgmental or condescending in any way. If there is anyone who reads this comment who is a homosexual I apologize if it is offensive. However, I have friends who are gay and they don’t seem to have too many problems with my thoughts so I’ll quit worrying.Well, this is my two cents worth.

    Posted by Mark Mathews | December 13, 2008, 10:46 am
  4. >All good thoughts Matt. I’m no specialist in Bible Interpretation, but here’s one thought anyhow.You write, “If Jesus thought it was acceptable, he probably would have said so.”That just doesn’t seem right. He needed to get crucified but not immediately. But seriously, there are many issues that the Bible, much less Jesus, doesn’t address explicitly. The very tendency to look to the Bible as a sort of exhaustive rule book for life and policy seems perverse and dangerous.

    Posted by kazimir | December 11, 2008, 11:13 pm
  5. >Thanks for the link Kazimir. I agree, it’s a great article–lots to think about.However, I strongly disagree with some major tenets of the article. Wink punted on 1 Cor 6:9–10, and his interpretation of Rom 1 is suspect. Even so, Wink writes, “Where the Bible mentions homosexual behavior at all, it clearly condemns it. I freely grant that.” However, he continues, “The issue is precisely whether that Biblical judgment is correct.”Is that how we want to “do theology”? If the Bible clearly condemns something, do we want to condone it? The best part of Wink’s article is his discussion of the changing sexual mores in the Bible, especially from Leviticus to Paul. I think prohibition against sexual relations with a menstruating woman in Leviticus but not (necessarily) in Paul or today makes the point best. The difference between sex with a menstruating woman and homosexuality is that homosexuality is clearly condemned by Paul.Wink is right, the mores changed. But does that mean “There is no Biblical sex ethic. Instead, it exhibits a variety of sexual mores, some of which changed over the thousand year span of biblical history” as Wink claims? Other mores also changed. Just in the sermon on the Mount, Jesus challenged contemporary practices related to murder, adultery, divorce, almsgiving, oaths, love for your neighbor, prayer, and fasting. Do we conclude then, that there is no ethic for these areas, either, but only mores? Christianity is a communal faith, not (just) an existential one. We have communion with the saints, and this includes the saints that have gone before. If we are going to call ourselves “Christians,” there should be some continuity between what we believe and what those who started the movement called Christianity believed. Homosexuality was clearly condemned by Paul. If Jesus thought it was acceptable, he probably would have said so, since he regularly challenged the prevailing attitudes toward sex and marriage when he disagreed. Thus, I think homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible.That being said, I think Christians harp way too much on this issue. Wink has a good point that if we want to stand up for the sanctity of marriage, maybe we should oppose divorce. How would a constitutional amendment against divorce go over?

    Posted by Matt | December 11, 2008, 6:38 pm
  6. >Study the Bible before using it in your politics. When your own children reject the Bible as hateful, you’ll share the blame for using it to promote your own cultural biases. Walter Wink, Professor of Biblical Interpretation, writes a short essay “Homosexuality and the Bible” which every Christian should read and consider: http://www.theotherjournal.com/article.php?id=23

    Posted by kazimir | December 10, 2008, 11:40 pm
  7. >Yes, let’s all just focus on the love of God and forget about His call to holiness, righteousness, and justice.

    Posted by Michael Freitag | December 6, 2008, 5:51 pm
  8. >”The bible says a lot of things”… especially if you read verses by themselves, out of context. And even if they were in context the Bible still condemns homosexual intercourse.But who cares what I think? I’m obviously filled with hatred for loving God and respecting His Word.

    Posted by Glenn Hendrickson | December 5, 2008, 7:32 pm

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